Forum:Pau's Chat Moderator Rights
Pau ( https://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/User:Pau_D._Seven ) also known as Cthaeh on the one piece discord server, has been temporarily demoted as chatmod. There have been concerns and complaints regarding his behavior in chat to new users, as well as controversy regarding how he was demoted and who was involved. To avoid further confusion and reach a fair conclusion as to whether Pau should keep his rights or not, IT'S FORUM TIME!! We'll give our points and opinions and thoughts on the matter and have a vote afterwards. LET THE FORUM BEGIN My personal opinion? I do think Pau's been harsh to some of the newer users, though I don't think he's incapable of changing. Rather than straight up removing his rights without warning, I think it's best we give him time to see if he's willing to change how he treats people in the server for the better. Pau's a good boy if he wants to be. :))) 22:55, September 21, 2018 (UTC) note: opinions from people who frequent the server will be held in higher regard than of those who don't. people who frequent the server, even those without the minimum required amount of edits, will still have the right to participate. (these rules don't apply to mods and admins) Ground Rules: #Participants must be present in the server prior to the forum opening. #User must have at least 500 messages overall recorded in the server to participate. #User must be active in 2018 prior to the forum opening in addition to the guidelines above. 23:57, September 21, 2018 (UTC) Discussion I would like for Awaikage or Yatanogarasu to post first about the specifics of how Pau got demoted, because I'm unsure how it exactly happened and how Yata came to the decision to do it in the first place. But as for Pau's behavior as a mod, I don't really see what made him bad at his job. He was pretty blunt, but was also the most vigilant at actually moderating people, and I don't recall him ever punishing someone for no reason. So maybe he could be nicer, but applying this strict moral code to him that none of the other mods follow either feels rather unnecessary. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:28, September 22, 2018 (UTC) They can participate in the forum. Anybody can. I just disagree that they would be able to vote since it goes against our voting rules. SeaTerror (talk) 08:36, September 22, 2018 (UTC) Pau was demoted by Yata and Drake. I don't have the specifics because I wasn't contacted. Pau himself never got an answer either. Other chat moderators I talked to saw the situation as sketchy because an admin who isn't active on Discord was contacted, and it's a well known fact that Drake doesn't get along with Pau. This also happened suddenly after Drake had been mostly absent from Discord for weeks following an incident of him harassing another user, for which I gave him a serious warning. Drake seemed to be convinced that Pau tried to "get him in trouble" with the situation, even though it was first brought to my attention by Drake himself. After this, he stopped contacting me. My opinion on Pau is the same as Kaido's. He's one of the more trustworthy users and has been working to make sure our bots work properly even during the past month. I believe he should be allowed to continue as a chat moderator. 09:43, September 22, 2018 (UTC) As an active user on the public discord server (under a different name of course, don't want Sock banning me) I can testify that Pau is an active and trustworthy mod. He certainly didn't deserve to be demodded. And as ST said, there's no reason why our normal voting rules shouldn't apply - if they haven't contributed to the wiki they don't really have a say in how the wiki is run. A larger part of the issue is that we have a couple of mostly inactive admins but that's a whole other issue. 11:37, September 22, 2018 (UTC) I'm going to have to disagree on a lot of the points here. First off editing has nothing to do with the Discord server, so everyone can vote if they meet the specific requirements outlined in this forum. Otherwise the majority of editors here with 300 edits are Pau's friend and will just let him walk. Also Nova, is not even in the server. That is a wide known fact. His Discord ID is Nova#9809 which is not in the server at the present. Even if he did have a sock there his vote would be invalid and the sock would have to be banned. As for the circumstances that led to Pau's demotion lots of users where providing evidence of Pau being rude and abusing his power on the server. People went to Kage, but he didn't seem to care. It was at the point where Kage was refusing to do anything that users went to another admin with screenshots and other proof that Pau should have been demoted. Again, I was not the one who went to Yata, it was another mod. A few days later DP actually came and asked what happened because apparently someone emailed him. Moving aside from the ethics and fairness of using a personal email to contact an admin, we explained what happened and was convinced. Kage dmed me like a week later about what happened. I replied 2 hours later and he never messaged back. Pau's behavior has been detrimental to the server. He bullies and harasses others, especially towards new users and has caused several active users to leave or to stop talking. We lost our bot manager because of his behavior as he was being rude and threatening towards him. And following that incident he took the bot inspector role for himself (which he shouldn't even have) and we have no logs of what changes he's making with them One of many examples of his rude behavior on the server 14:54, September 22, 2018 (UTC) Hi hi, my username on the Discord Server is Supreme Cutie. As a user affected by and have seen his tomfoolery up close for months, I honestly doubt that he will ever change. He only treats his friend nicely but as you see from the screenshot that Drake provided Pau is a huge hooligan to those who aren't his friends. I remember that he'd sometimes snap at me for just announcing that I am here so then I would basically lurk until users that were friendly would join. Even when talking to other users he would usually interject into the conversation and say something rude. I did lurk and watch the chat everyday, but I don't talk there mainly because I didn't feel safe with Pau around. I am an admin on the Superpower Wikia and personally mods who act like that are rarely given a second chance because there is no excuse to be a tomfool to random strangers. User talk:Imouto-tan Imouto 16:59, September 22, 2018 (UTC)Imouto-tan Could you show more examples, please? I can agree somewhat, that attitude was excessive even if it was directed to someone who likely wasn't on the server at the time, but that alone shouldn't prevent Pau from getting a second chance. I hear these vague allegations of him being abusive but other than that screenshot have yet to see any solid examples. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:42, September 22, 2018 (UTC) Here you go Note that he says that I have mental disorders and all I did was not boop another user. He literally joined into our conversation for no reason other to insult me. This was all unprovoked. Here is Exhibit A this link leads to the screenshot Again I am also Supreme Cutie or Cutie for short on Discord Imouto 18:16, September 22, 2018 (UTC)Imouto-tan Hooray a forum.. Straight to the point, Pau is a good mod, he has never abused his rights, never kicked/banned without a good reason. He has done good work on discord. Pau has his own personality like everyone else, ppl who don’t know him might think he can be rude. Do I think that his mod rights should be removed, no. We have seen other mods not behaving well, abusing powers, letting personal issues get in the way, what did they get. They got warnings, meaning they also got many chances to improve. I think it would be good here as well. -- 19:12,9/22/2018 19:12, September 22, 2018 (UTC) The two screenshots are barely two months apart, he clearly acted the same way on both occasions -- unprovoked venom. If that is a good mod then and would hate to see what a bad mod is like. Imouto 19:20, September 22, 2018 (UTC)Imouto-tan User talk:Imouto-tan Make me mod. SeaTerror (talk) 19:24, September 22, 2018 (UTC) I talked about him doing his job as mod. For Attiude. I think ppl can be given second chances. Ppl can improve and change. We have done it before. Why make an exception here. -- 19:28,9/22/2018 19:28, September 22, 2018 (UTC) I like how when a user was asked to provide a screenshot and complied they got hit with an image guidelines violation and got a warning that they would get banned. Not everyone who is going to post here will know the image guidelines. Looks like someone is trying to get rid of evidence and get that user banned. Not to mention it's inappropriate to say a user has mental issues, especially if it's towards someone they do not know personally. This is not a one time thing between a single user. He has done it to multiple users and as a result has negatively impacted the server 19:32, September 22, 2018 (UTC) :Is this the first time you've actually read the image guidelines template? Nothing is stopping that user, or account, from posting an image as long as they conform to the rules. I encourage them to do so. : 19:45, September 22, 2018 (UTC) ::No indication on the server or this forum indicates procedures for posting screenshots. So using the image guidelines template was a bit excessive there. There's also the matter that you're not in the server and are participating in the forum. The "As an active user on the public discord server (under a different name of course)" is not convincing. If you think Pau truly didn't do anything wrong he can get his rights back without your help. Otherwise you're just undermining his position on this as at the moment it's just his friends coming to his aid 19:54, September 22, 2018 (UTC) It is of no consequence already linked to the screenshot Imouto 19:57, September 22, 2018 (UTC)Imouto-tan I think there's too much focus on Pau as an individual here. Bottom line, the reason we created the forum in the first place was because a mod had their rights removed in, what many people have found to be, a pretty shady way. Without knowledge of the other mods or even all the admins, he got demoted. Many people weren't even aware he got his rights removed until weeks or even months later. Is that the precedent we should be setting? Suddenly mods or admins just disappear because one or two people decided they weren't good for the server or wiki? Instead of this game of thrones bullshit it would make far more sense to just finally implement a set of rules and guidelines that mods and admins should adhere to, much like we put into place for regular users. Basically a warning, 2nd warning, temporary demote and permanent demote kinda system. If regular users are supposed to be kept in check, mods and admins should get a similar type of treatment for the betterment of the server and the wiki. Does that mean mods and admins from here on out need to act like super professional, rigid bots? No, since we're all still just people, mods and admins have just as much right to express their personality and character as much as the other users. Pau was just doing Pau, much like I do me, Jess does Jess, Kaido does Kaido, etc. However, there is obviously a line to draw for us as mods so as to do our job keeping the peace in chat all while still being ourselves. The rules shouldn't be strict, restricting or overbearing, in fact, they should feel less like rules and more just feel like common knowledge. (Be harsh on users if necessary but not to the point of bullying, don't argue with users so as to get a rise out of them before jailing/banning them, dont promote just fighting bullshit between other users, etc). If a mod/admin repeatedly can't adhere to these pretty basic guidelines (which are up to change or revision), they get the warnings, temporary demoting, permanent demoting etc. Obviously these guidelines would primarily apply just to the mods who actively participate in chat, cos at the end of the day mods can do their jobs without having to really participate much in the chat itself. (I'll note that Pau did do a lot more moderating than most of the others did for a while, whether he was actively participating in the chat or not). I think a more regulated system of demodding users is really the least we can do, especially for Pau, who's done a lot in the past to support the server and the wiki (even if it wasnt always the people in it). We can act like this is an issue of Pau's friends vs Pau's enemies but in reality it's far less petty, as we're dealing with the fact that someone got demoted without even half the server's other mods knowing about it. Those are my honest and most neutral thoughts on the matter, and i'd like to close by saying everyone here has a butt face haha thank u for reading -- 20:28, September 22, 2018 (UTC) It may be of interest to people posting here that [https://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Sannse/Guest_Blog_Post_-_Screenshots_and_Chat_Logs according to staff, screenshots are not valid evidence] because they can be edited too easily. 20:31, September 22, 2018 (UTC) It's also worth mentioning that Sannse wrote that in regards to the Wikia chat. Discord shows when a message has been edited. Once again Nova, stop try to skew the discussion especially when you're not in the server. You know very well that those screenshots are valid and are trying to protect your friend. If you continue I will have an admin remove you from the discussion 20:35, September 22, 2018 (UTC) The thing here isn't about Pau yes or not, it's about the fact that the discord server hasn't accomplished the purpose it was meant to be: to attract new users to the wiki. Has there been a change? No, because you don't need more users, I have said it many times, you don't have no clue about how it is to run a wiki with only two or three active users and to make it as big as we have done at the Catalan one. Besides, no new users in Discord care about helping in the wiki, so why keeping the server affiliated with it? Just rename it and make it your brothel or whatever you want with it, wouldn't that be a win-win solution? You'd have your kingdom without any "abusive" mods and we'd have a calmed wiki without any childish things to care about. 21:20, September 22, 2018 (UTC) "Pau has his own personality like everyone else, ppl who don’t know him might think he can be rude." That basically gives us another reason why to not give him his mod rights back. We need people who can make the new users, who join our chat, feel comfortable, and if Pau isn't able to do that, because of, like you just said, his personality then he shouldn't be a mod. It's like making a socially awkward person moderate a public chat. Don't get me wrong, Pau can be a nice guy, when he wants to, but he has proved us several times to not be mod worthy. Same goes for other mods, some of them tend to abuse their power in a childish way, like unnecessarily mention everyone in the server. We gotta try to create a friendly environment where everyone is welcome and can feel at ease, without having to be bullied by others, which forces new (and old users) to just lurk or even leave the server, but that will never happen if we give mod to people like Pau. Oda jr. 2.0 (talk) 22:57, September 22, 2018 (UTC) I agree with Fin as well. The way Pau was demoded was shady, then he got his rights back a few days ago then got them removed again. I feel like we are going against each other. I do think we need some kind of guideline for mods, discussion mods and admins. -- 10:56,9/23/2018 10:56, September 23, 2018 (UTC) Here's the thing. Was Pau ever warned for this behavior? Was he given a chance to correct it? Drake got off with a warning for harassment, and still has his mod rights. Though I would like Kage to comment about any complaints about Pau he may have received. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 23:44, September 25, 2018 (UTC) He didn't need to get warned by someone else to understand what he was doing wrong, his behaviour was wrong and not mod worthy, even his fellow moderators acknowledged that. Also it's useless to direct message Kage about server related stuff, he appears on the server like once month, some times he doesn't appear for a month or two. Oda jr. 2.0 (talk) 19:40, September 26, 2018 (UTC) And yet he's still the only admin who goes on the public server. 19:46, September 26, 2018 (UTC) Going there once every 2 months ain't enough. Drake is the only person we can refer to if something happens, he's also the only person who can actually manage the server without abusing his powers or anything, don't think any non staff user actually complained about him, can't say the same about Pau. Oda jr. 2.0 (talk) 20:03, September 26, 2018 (UTC) I support keeping Pau as mod, and Fin's suggestion of having a proper set of rules for mod behavior and the demotion process needs to be implemented. Personally, I don't agree with Pau's brutal honesty with his often-negative opinions of people in the server, simply because that's not my own style. That said, he was by far the most active mod. I would say he was in fact our best mod because he was online for many hours each day, watching the server, and dealing with issues as they came up. An active mod with a bad attitude is better than an inactive mod that does nothing. It's a problem that we never set up mod behavior rules in the first place. Maybe "be civil" "don't abuse power" and "follow server rules like anyone else" are unspoken expectations of mods. Don't leave them unspoken. Write them out somewhere, make them official, and hold all mods to them, not just Pau. If he continues to break them after they've been set in stone, then we can talk about demoting him. He hasn't done anything yet to warrant outright demotion. I am also concerned by how his rights were removed without first consulting other mods and admins. This was not the case when we decided, as a group, to demote a trial moderator. It shouldn't have happened, and we need rules to prevent it from happening again. This situation was likely caused by the existing mods/admins from the wiki being imported as-is into a Discord server that functions fundamentally differently and has different expectations/requirements than being mod/admin on the wiki alone. That discrepancy will continue to cause problems until it's been dealt with. MizuakiYume (talk) 21:24, September 26, 2018 (UTC) Hi I am Oka Shichibukai. When I just got into discord server, got kicked by Pau without any reason. Later I knew the reason was that he thought I was ASL who was doing something he didn't like. I agree about his rude behaviour. He thinks that he is above all of us and can do whatever he wants. Rules only applies to us not him. I mean he can make fun of us and if we try to respond and he doesn't like it then he will just mute us or kick us or may be ban us. Most of the mods here are his good freinds so obviously they would help their freind. I think you just shouldn't listen to any modes opinion on pau as victims are normal users not modes. I heard that he will only talk when he will get his mode powers back. What's that dude ? He ain't here as a user but he just wants power and wants to use it as he please. As a user if I have to say he is the worst mode of all I have seen....Ōka Shichibukai (talk) 19:15, September 27, 2018 (UTC)